Curse

Ex Death · Mar 27, 2009, 09:52 AM // 09:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

Why would you bring IAS in a build that's supposed to be a clean spike?

Ok gaiz, in between spikes let's pressure them with... 1 Warrior not using any attack skills and... 2 Rangers hitting every now and then...

If you had any understanding whatsoever about builds and how they work, you would realise that 1 warrior using frenzy will not only facilitate the spike itelf but also create minor pressure in between spikes, thereby meaning future spikes will be more likely to succeed. Probably more importantly, it builds up adrenaline faster which is pretty key in this type of build because, if you haven't noticed, all spike assists have extremely low recharges and you want deep wound available as quickly as possible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

They NEVER use Dismember + Power + Prot strike... You clearly havn't obs'ed or played the build. (Which might be a good thing.... )
IF the warrior use power attack, then you know the spike will already have been protted and won't go through, regardless of frenzy.

I haven't logged in for a while so I don't know exactly what is being used on warriors in 1 warrior spike but if power attack isn't being used anymore that doesn't add any credibility to your argument.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

Useless skill in that build, it's like giving bloodspikers life siphon, because it does insane degen...

That's a terrible analogy. The difference between frenzy and life siphon is that life siphon is just plain shit in every situation whereas frenzy is one of the best skills in the game for a variety of different situations, and there is a reason why every single warrior in the game runs it.

Reverend Dr · Mar 27, 2009, 02:36 PM // 14:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

Deepwound on wheels still spikes faster with frenzy.

That time that you save by using frenzy is more than lost by having to walk up to your target.

l2wheel

ExDeath I don't think you understand just how terrible and weird are single warrior spike builds. There is no reason to run frenzy on those builds, especially in the face of something like burst of aggression. Two real warriors can put out pressure, one warrior with just dismember and prot strike simply cannot. You are not spiking the target that you are attacking, so the auto-attack damage is easily going to be mopped up by party healing.

Killed u man · Mar 27, 2009, 03:57 PM // 15:57

Atleast reverend had got the reading comprehension to understand what I'm talking about.

Frenzy IS a good skill, but just like bringing it on an ele, it's bad bringing it on the bar I described...

I also find it weird NONE of you have seen the build I described, as during double champ weekend, aside from the bspikes, 50% of the builds (so the "balanced" spike builds) was this build...

It's nothing more than a W/A (WE, dismember, prot strike, augury and shadowsteps), 1 or 2 rangers, a mindshock ele, kappaspiker and whatnot else...

IF you're going to call me a tombser, atleast make sure YOU have any clue what I'm talking about, cuz clearly, the majority of elitst GvG'ers posting here don't even have ANY CLUE what I'm talking about. Nice trolls tough, gotta give you head's up for that one...

As reverend said, and as I in my OP said:

The Warrior is nothing more than the tool that brings the DW, he even has Augury on his bar. NONE of the Warriors (even top 20 GvG) bothered to attack anything, but just stand still and spear shit for adrenaline, then shadowstep + dismember + prot strike...

My point is, why the f did they still have frenzy on their bar? They were only spiking once every 7-8 seconds, which is more than enough to build 5 adrenline, when you're already getting atleast 1 back during the actual spike. so 8 seconds to build 3-4 adrenaline seems reasonable.

Ec]-[oMaN · Mar 27, 2009, 04:03 PM // 16:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

NONE of the Warriors (even top 20 GvG) bothered to attack anything, but just stand still and spear shit for adrenaline, then shadowstep + dismember + prot strike...

The bad ones maybe, and that's clearly not what I saw that weekend....

Ex Death · Mar 27, 2009, 05:38 PM // 17:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

ExDeath I don't think you understand just how terrible and weird are single warrior spike builds. There is no reason to run frenzy on those builds, especially in the face of something like burst of aggression. Two real warriors can put out pressure, one warrior with just dismember and prot strike simply cannot. You are not spiking the target that you are attacking, so the auto-attack damage is easily going to be mopped up by party healing.

Yes you could run a different IAS to frenzy such as burst of aggression, but there is really no point because frenzy is still indisputably the best IAS for axe warriors. There might've been a case otherwise if VoD still existed. If there is a warrior and 1 or 2 turrets in a spike build, you really are underesimating the auto-attacking damage in between spikes which can generate enough minor pressure to make spikes more unpredictable and more likely to succeed. You really would be surprised how more likely spikes are going to succeed if party bars are not completely topped off. The 'random autoattacking damage being cleaned up by party healing' argument is void because you're not looking to apply long-term team wiping pressure (which party healing is primarily designed to counteract) but just enough so that party bars are not completely at maximum. This makes a pretty huge difference to spike builds and the vast majority of people seem to overlook this fact.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

The Warrior is nothing more than the tool that brings the DW, he even has Augury on his bar. NONE of the Warriors (even top 20 GvG) bothered to attack anything, but just stand still and spear shit for adrenaline, then shadowstep + dismember + prot strike...

This is so ridiculously obvious. The entire reason warriors are used in the build as opposed to another ranger or midliner (casterspike) is because Frenzy + Dismember has the fastest cooldown of deep wound application in the game. You don't just use frenzy when you're spiking, that's just terrible. It also creates minor pressure in between spikes as I have been talking about before.

Also, spearing shit in between spikes is absolutely terrible. It couldn't make the spike any more predictable when all a monk has to do is watch the warrior until he weapon swaps and then switch over to the infuse button.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

My point is, why the f did they still have frenzy on their bar? They were only spiking once every 7-8 seconds, which is more than enough to build 5 adrenline, when you're already getting atleast 1 back during the actual spike. so 8 seconds to build 3-4 adrenaline seems reasonable.

Under normal conditions you're never going to build 5 adrenaline without an IAS in 7-8 seconds. Considering you're the only warrior in the build, (and possibly the only physical) all of the enemy team's anti melee will be focused on you, which is even more reason to bring frenzy to build the adrenaline faster.

Ec]-[oMaN · Mar 27, 2009, 06:30 PM // 18:30

It's also fairly easy to fake spikes and draw some prots or infuse using frenzy+deep wound+prot and have your air ele use ss+follow up, water ele spam 2 skills and it rapes a bar to easily 1/4. After that's done easily target next player+augury and do it all over again with the bigger skills left on your ranger+midline. This thread is pretty useless when you actually could be talking about the majority of teams running this spike suck in general.

Bolygo · Mar 27, 2009, 06:54 PM // 18:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Massive Impulsa

the spikkes

more spikkes

Makes spikkes

faster spikkes .

Its spikes dude.

Reverend Dr · Mar 29, 2009, 04:49 AM // 04:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ex Death

You really would be surprised how more likely spikes are going to succeed if party bars are not completely topped off. The 'random autoattacking damage being cleaned up by party healing' argument is void because you're not looking to apply long-term team wiping pressure (which party healing is primarily designed to counteract) but just enough so that party bars are not completely at maximum. This makes a pretty huge difference to spike builds and the vast majority of people seem to overlook this fact.

I am a terrible monk. As such I never make arguments from the lines of "Only terrible monks. . ."

I am a terrible monk. My friend who is at my skill level often joins me for pug monking. We have monked against this type of spike. And when I say us, I mean just us, no third monk, no defense on the midline. It took over 13 minutes for the other team (A standard pressure would have taken less than 4 easily) to wipe us. Why? Because we didn't "top off" people on our team and just watched for the spike. Because agains this build the spike is the only lethal thing (In standard 2 warrior builds the warriors can be lethal, but not in this one).

Really, I'm a bad monk and this doesn't work on me. What does this tell you about the monks that it does work on?

Also you have not really played as a WE warrior before have you? Dismember -> Prot strike on the spike give you 2 adren back for dismember. Two hits and a prot strike gives you dismember back, very easy to do in 3-4 seconds and IAS has little effect upon this.

@Ec]-[oMaN
The only time you get "good" (and by good I mean not shit terrible) teams running this spike is when a team decides to run something that is deliberately bad.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Mar 29, 2009, 04:55 AM // 04:55

If you and you're equally terrible buddy can save spikes, all that means is that the spike is terrible.

Reverend Dr · Mar 29, 2009, 04:59 AM // 04:59

It is a one warrior spike build.

Ex Death · Mar 29, 2009, 10:34 AM // 10:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Really, I'm a bad monk and this doesn't work on me. What does this tell you about the monks that it does work on?

This tells me that it had absolutely nothing to do with you and your buddy monk's skill level and everything to do with the (in)competance of the spike build you were facing. I don't care if you're bad at monk. You have based your entire argument on presumably some shitty tombs teams which has absolutely nothing to do with high end gvg which all arguments should derive from, otherwise its pointless to discuss. I know this for a fact because if you were discussing it from a high end gvg perspective you would realise everything you are arguing for is wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Also you have not really played as a WE warrior before have you? Dismember -> Prot strike on the spike give you 2 adren back for dismember. Two hits and a prot strike gives you dismember back, very easy to do in 3-4 seconds and IAS has little effect upon this.

I pretty much invented that WE build as soon as the update came out and everyone else was still playing eviscerate warriors, but since then no I haven't played the build much. Does that matter? No, because it's completely besides the point. You're never going to build dismember in 3-4 seconds when, if you're facing a mirror build, all their anti melee will be focused on you. Have you seen the build? Do you realise how much anti-melee defense it has? Even with PnH on you 100%, you're still going to be hitting far less without frenzy.

However, looking at it completely from your perspective, supposing you really don't want to bring frenzy, what else do you want to bring which would be more useful? More shadowsteps? Nope, because they all have aftercast and so are useless in a pure spike build. The only marginally useful alternative would be Warrior's Cunning, however, this is outweighed in many respects by Augury of Death which serves the same functionality of providing an unblockable deep wound, which of course has a much better recharge. If getting blocked so much on your other attack skills is so much of an issue you might want to reconsider your spike targets. Besides, if you're relying on this skill, you're playing the build wrong because you need to produce clean spikes quickly, not once every 60 seconds. Other random shit such as disrupting dagger is never going to be more useful than frenzy under any situation.

Kyp Jade · Mar 29, 2009, 11:04 AM // 11:04

I wish the OP could actually communicate his ideas clearly.
Learn to express ideas.

In almost every situation with these 1 war spike builds, any additional "pressure" or "good play" by the warrior is laughed at by the monks. They dont even need to burn a prot because its a laugh, better to let the party heal to cleanup the shitpressure.

A warrior is only used because dismember is the easiest source of deep wound in the game. Warriors are not used in this build to kill with bullsstrike.
Frenzy is wasted in this *ONE* situation on the warrior bar.

--------
The only good play you can ever see from the warrior in these types of builds is faking out the spike target.
-Running between targets
-Running next to targets, not at them
-Running towards one target and shadowstepping to someone else
-etc

Lux Aeterna · Apr 01, 2009, 05:07 AM // 05:07

how exactly is a chain of 3 melee attacks a spike ?

also you can't attack for a second or so after shadowstepping.

where can i see this build ?

Lux Aeterna · Apr 01, 2009, 05:08 AM // 05:08

oh by the way what the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO is up with these new avatars

is this a joke

Hanging Man · Apr 01, 2009, 06:35 AM // 06:35

this thread makes me laugh. people misunderstand the OP, thinking he says frenzy is bad, and everyone explodes.

grab your ropes, apparently were lynching the frenzy haterz.

Shadow Slave · Apr 01, 2009, 06:36 AM // 06:36

Yes. Happy April Fools Day.

(...and Happy Birthday to me! *cough*)

Killed u man · Apr 01, 2009, 04:27 PM // 16:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lux Aeterna

how exactly is a chain of 3 melee attacks a spike ?

also you can't attack for a second or so after shadowstepping.

where can i see this build ?

[build prof=Warrior/Assassin][Dismember][Protector's Strike][Warrior's Endurance][Frenzy][Dash][Augury of Death][Shadow Fang][Resurrection Signet][/build]

God, does anyone posting here even observe/play GvG? It's the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing bar that carried KMD to their 3 year awaited gold cape...

Anyways, let me clear some things up some of you people clearly missed/didn't understand:

1) Frenzy is a GOOD skill
2) It's BAD on this bar, in my opinion, because it doesn't add anything to the purpose of the bar, which is spike

3) increasing the 1/2 second cast time (1/4 really) of prot strike with frenzy will only net you a +-0.1 orso faster spike (Ok, "aftercast" on hits gets reduced aswell with frenzy, but still, it's not worth the extra 2 skills)

4) Yes, 2 skills extra, cuz Dash is needed as extra cancel stance...

I have seen Frenzy to be only usefull on this bar in 2 situations:

1) Splits, where the Warrior split off to kill shit, and Frenzy then helps alot. Too bad you don't split with a 8v8 spike build, and hence they fcking lost the match anyways, regardless of the brave frenzy on this brave warrior's bar.

2) Aftermath. When they already spiked out half the enemy team, the Warrior started spamming Frenzy in order to "pressure" remaining shit down with his axe. Train it down is more precise. But in reality, this is NOT winning our breaking your match, it is merely speeding up the process of winning after you've already guaranteed victory. Instead of spending 30 seconds killing off that last monk, ele and mesmer, you now spend 20 seconds killing them off.

It simply is a bad skill to bring on such a bar. Heck imo an A/P is better in every way compared to the W/A. But on point now, why bring Frenzy/Dash when you can bring skills such as:

[Wild Blow], as a quick remove stance in case a ranger throws of Lightening. (Farfetched, but I can still see it being usefull)
[Distracting Strike]
[Distracting Blow]
[Shadow Walk]
[Disrupting Dagger]
[Lift Enchantment]
etc...

Byron · Apr 01, 2009, 04:35 PM // 16:35

Posting to see what kind of geek I am

EDIT- Damn, I wanted warhammer geek.

Bobby2 · Apr 01, 2009, 04:47 PM // 16:47

Furry geek!

1: I can see [dash] being useful by itself... owait they don't split, ever, so nvm
2: wouldn't run shit that killed Dismember, [wild blow] maybe, but [shadow walk] wtf
3: [lift enchantment] without a KD of your own?

Massive Impulsa · Apr 01, 2009, 05:53 PM // 17:53

Ppl do tend swapping from W/A to A/P..

Ofc W/A is a lot more fuN!

Also wtf.... Colleticble geek -.-